Curse

Cab Tastic · Mar 26, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Originally Posted by Fay Vert
GW has never had inflation.

So where did you get the idea of this mythical inflation? GW maybe a fantasy game, but inflation certainly did not exist.

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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

You must be newer to the game. Otherwise you wouldn't have said something so wrong, lol.

You must be even newer to the game to post something so wrong about something so right.

Cab Tastic · Mar 26, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It's so good, I thought people might want to read it inline with the thread:

Anet are human you know.

You really think they had a clue what implementing LS would do. It was clear they had no idea when a couple of days later a patch excluding rare items etc was implemented. It struck me at the time that they were basically experimenting some employees bright idea.

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

The poll on this thread is dumb/pointless, and utterly meaningless. All it does is measure whiners on a thread about whining over LS.

In no way does it reflect the attitudes or opinions of GW players. It doesn't represent a cross-section of the community, just a cross section of SOUR people, who come to forums to b1tch/whine/moan things they don't like.

Dumb, dumb poll.

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

After thinking it over some more, I've come to the conclusion that LS still does overall more good than harm. However, and this is a very big however, it is just one half of the solution and only pushes problems around without really accessing them. Here are some measures that would help the issue (any combination of them would work):

Devalue the currency by raising the monetary value of all drops by x% to compensate for the disparity in the accessibility of pre- and post-LS fixed price items. Everybody wins except NPCs but they won't QQ.
Make identical weapon mods stackable. Currently I need 10+ mules just to hold the stock, and my entire Xunlai storage is full of merchandise, one of each item that is on offer (page 1 inscriptions, page 2 tomes, page 3 caster mods, page 4 martial arts mods). Every time I sell something I have to fetch a replacement from a mule, and I still keep trashing perfect mods because I can't bother buying any more character slots and all the existing ones are full
Finally implement the auction house!

It always makes me shake my head when people bring the auction house idea into this type of discussion. People want to sell things easier and for more money. But that's not what an auction house would do.

Say you have a decent sword that sells for around 25k to the community. Right now, you can hawk it in Kamadan for about that much, taking anywhere from 30 seconds to a 30 minutes to find a buyer....

Now imagine an auction house scenario. Someone in the market to buy this sword now has access to 89 sellers of this same exact sword. Since so many want to sell, price PLUMMETS. Supply (or access to supply) skyrockets, meaning the sword can now be bought for 1k.

Now every supposedly swank item you have is worth jack. Which is the exact opposite of what people want to achieve.

Market value for items in this game is propped up by the idea that it's a challenge for buyers and sellers to connect. Competition in the marketplace is greatly inhibited. Implement an open auction house system and watch capitalism DEMOLISH prices.

Cab Tastic · Mar 26, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Ok heres a thought.

From the people who defend LS I hear a lot this type of talk... Working as intended.....Anets plan worked...... Anet implemented this because of inflation...Read ANets comments on LS

Lets theorise what would happen should LS be in place now as it was when Anet originally released it(i.e. without the exemption list). Remember this was how it was originally "designed". The patch was released when they realised they had messed up.

(1) The obvious one. Ecto's. Massive rise in price as supply dries up.
(2) All rare skins. Massive rise in price as supply dries up.
(3) Rare materials. Rising in price as supply dries up.
(4) Dye...Rising in price as supply lowers
(5) Green items and common Gold items. Not too sure on this one. My prediction would be to rise initially and then gradually fall to the lows we have now. HM may offset some of this rise though for common golds.
(6) sup runes. getting predicatble now isn't it. Rising in price.

(7) Common materials. Tend to be higher in price due to lack of supply from farmers. Not much in it though. And still very much affordable as is the case in todays market.

So what does this tell us of the ANets master plan for LS?. Working as intended from the start???

[IRONY]

Maybe we are all wrong and Anet saw that the economy was deflating massively and they had to act to make sure all game items had value. Hence LS to reduce supply and keep prices high!!!!

[/IRONY]

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I also think that that anti-LS crowd on this forum should consider alternatives. You guys want more opportunities to make money. That's fine.

But why does that require LS removal? It doesn't! The fact is, there are many other ways the game could be changed to increase cash flow. You people need to suggest some alternatives that don't damage the game (to paraphrase Anet).

Pre-LS era Solo farming was an abusive mess. Anet wont take the game back to that state. Think of alternatives instead of posting the same narrow-minded dead-end crap and voting in a meaningless poll...

mr_groovy · Mar 26, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

The poll on this thread is dumb/pointless, and utterly meaningless. All it does is measure whiners on a thread about whining over LS.

In no way does it reflect the attitudes or opinions of GW players. It doesn't represent a cross-section of the community, just a cross section of SOUR people, who come to forums to b1tch/whine/moan things they don't like.

Dumb, dumb poll.

And you are even the worse kind. Tell me what do you get out of it when people earn a bit more money without LS?
Is your E-Peen diminished? Do you express against players who don't want to play the game you want them to play it?
Removing LS will make it easier on everybody to make money, either by playing the game, or farming. Or are you one that rather see people put massive amounts of time in the game? Skill > time.

reetkever · Mar 26, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

I also think that that anti-LS crowd on this forum should consider alternatives. You guys want more opportunities to make money. That's fine.

But why does that require LS removal? It doesn't! The fact is, there are many other ways the game could be changed to increase cash flow. You people need to suggest some alternatives that don't damage the game (to paraphrase Anet).

First off, the removal of the LS won't damage the game in any way since it doesn't cause inflation like most people think.

Second off, the situation before the LS was best for everyone - Prices were getting low, money was easy to make - nobody had any reason to complain to be poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Pre-LS era Solo farming was an abusive mess. Anet wont take the game back to that state. Think of alternatives instead of posting the same narrow-minded dead-end crap and voting in a meaningless poll...

Pre-LS was just fine. In fact, that's the 'era' where Guild Wars was at it's peak. After that economy got messed over and casual farming got killed.

But okay, here are some other alternatives:

-Loot Scaling doesn't affect Normal Mode. I agree that removing the Loot Scaling in HM would cause the economy to die out even more. Drops would become too common and everything would cost 100 Gold. NM is fine, though.

-Loot Scaling only comes in effect after a few farm runs, just like the anti-farm code used to do.

-Remove Loot Scaling and improve the drops in an 8-man team. (Like, 800 gold drops in an 8-player team, and monsters drop more than 1 item).

tmakinen · Mar 26, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

It always makes me shake my head when people bring the auction house idea into this type of discussion. People want to sell things easier and for more money. But that's not what an auction house would do.

Now you're being disingenuous. Most of the potential profit of an average player is not in high ticket items but in much more mundane stuff in the (current) 1-10k price range. Let's say that I have a perfect "Sleep Now in the Fire" inscription. If I can find an interested buyer for it, I will get about 2k in the trade, and there are people who'd want one at that price. However, if it will take at least 15 minutes of my time to find that buyer it just doesn't pay off, since in that 15 minutes I could have gained 3k through other means. Hello merchant, here's a perfect shield mod for you, can has my 25g kthxbai. Everybody loses.

It's not about getting better price from the items you're selling, it's about getting any price at all. Without an auction house to cut down the necessary time investment, there is no low end market. I'm giving away good stuff for free just because it's not worth my time to find the buyer.

Fril Estelin · Mar 26, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Removing LS will make it easier on everybody to make money, either by playing the game, or farming. Or are you one that rather see people put massive amounts of time in the game? Skill > time.

This is the "first level interpretation of removing LS from the game" (provided you removed gold-sellers) and it's what I thought at first.

I changed my mind when I realised that this simple feature may actually protect us from wider-ranging phenomenon in the economy, including the much-requested "back to pre-LS farming days" (which is an utopia). Furthermore, for full-part, it should make no difference, so "simple gamers" should not see any impact, which is what I personally had in mind initially.

So I'm on the dark side now, /notsigned (though I must say thank you for initiating this discussion!)

Eli Rela · Mar 26, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

The poll on this thread is dumb/pointless, and utterly meaningless. All it does is measure whiners on a thread about whining over LS.

In no way does it reflect the attitudes or opinions of GW players. It doesn't represent a cross-section of the community, just a cross section of SOUR people, who come to forums to b1tch/whine/moan things they don't like.

Dumb, dumb poll.

You do realize that your opinion also not representing all GW community.
We all voicing our own opinions here and poll is somewhat represent general feeling in the community (or at least on guru forum)
You and everyone else are welcome of cause to present their point of view, but please do not call yourself "we the people"
If you noticed you actually the only (or the most vocal) voice here to support LS.
On other alternatives.. hmm.. like what? more 1337 drops would be useless as it would sell for 1k in no time, more gold rewards from quests, it is a possibility... anything else?

CHannum · Mar 26, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

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Originally Posted by reetkever

You are just proving to be selfish here. 'Because I got my stuff, everyone else can!1!!1!1'.

No, I'm calling out a deluded liar because, while it shouldn't bother me, the flat out greed and, yes, stupidity of people like yourself sickens me. I've been playing this game with my brother and a couple of real life friends since last fall. We've never done a thing but actually play the game - no farming, no grinding of areas except if we did want a fifth hydra's claw, no mindless power trading, just going through and playing. We've done absolutely fine. Are all of us just incredibly lucky, or are we just on something that escapes you: you don't need any of the crap you think you do. If you don't have the cash in this game to play the actual game, you aren't even playing. Heck, my crazy brother who has probably spent almost everything he's ever made on mini-pets and lockpicks is almost done with Sorrow's Furnace (while running some absolutely non-optimal builds because he likes them). This isn't extrapolation from one experience, this is extrapolation from multiple players with multiple characters each, the odds that we all be so incredibly lucky compared to the general populace with every single one of our characters (a couple of dozen in all) is nonsense.

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Same as above. And sure, I COULD beat the campaigns with less than 50K.

I doubt you could since your notion of "fun" is so tied into the notion of being imaginarily rich. The very notion of "how badly" you were doing would cause an aneurysm.

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One that only played the storyline can't claim he enjoys the game because the storyline is FAR from everything.

Actually, you're wrong here and you ought to know it. The game that Anet made, you know, the non-PVP side of the game that involves a series of quests and missions with a handful of elite areas at the end is all that they actually advertise and strongly support. All these sub elements that you are fixated on are just sub elements. When you put the cart before the horse (e.g. it's not enough to slowly work on my Sweet Tooth not caring if ever gets maxed, no, it needs to be maxed out ASAP), you're NOT playing the game they're selling and you have no business expecting anyone with a working brain to take you seriously. It's like going out and buying a Monopoly set and complaining they have all these properties other than Park Place and there's not enough cash for you to block off the rest of the board and then play your way. They make a game, they charge a very fair price for that game, and you either enjoy it or you go do something else. They never promised to be everything to everybody and from the tone of you crybaby whining, I take it you ought to go do something else in life.

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So playing the game, getting nice drops and buying everything you want is not called lazy and greedy, but working a bit for it, is? Let me tell you that I'd GLADLY work for cash. It's just impossible with the current game. Max damage weapons are not the best in this game. Torment Weapons and FoW armour are. Max Damage Weaponsmith weapons are just the base equipment that anyone should be able to buy. And who is to decide what or what not is good enough?

Allow me to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes. First, you clearly aren't willing to work for it or you'd not be here whining. Even the farmers have pointed out there are still places you can still make 20K or more an hour - that's an evening or two for a set of normal elite, a couple of weeks to FOW, and if that's still not fast enough for you, you must not actually care, but instead just want to whine that Anet won't hand you everything you ever dreamed of getting.

Plenty of non-greedy asshats seem to be doing fine. Probably more than 95% of the player base doesn't even know there is such a thing as loot scaling in effect and wouldn't care because it never has nor ever will impact their playing.

Also, max stat weapons and armor regardless of what they look like ARE the best in the game. No fancy skin improves their function, and if you think it matters a single bit whether or not you're using free BMP sword with max mods or a Torment sword with max mods, you define your own problem and explain why some people hate the current system and others have no problem with it.

See, I enjoy getting to improve the appearance of an item because it amuses me. I enjoy getting to advance down some title track because it amuses me. However, I don't think for a millisecond that it does me any good in the game. It's why I don't see money as a problem. I got everything I actually needed just playing the game, when I get to splurge on a suit of elite or a mini or cap a bunch of weird elites I'll probably never use in a million years, that's a bonus, it's not the game, it has no effect on the game, it never will have any effect on the game. It's just a garnish served up on the plate of a nice meal. The garnish might make the presentation more attractive, but it won't ever make the meal any better or more filling. Realise that and you'd have fun, keep obsessing over some intangible digital data and you'll always be a whining, miserable person.

quickmonty · Mar 26, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

The poll on this thread is dumb/pointless, and utterly meaningless. Dumb, dumb poll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

........... and voting in a meaningless poll...

Oh NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 I'm being outvoted! Stupid, dumb, meaningless poll!!

Gli · Mar 26, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

First off, the removal of the LS won't damage the game in any way since it doesn't cause inflation like most people think.

You have no idea. With no changes other than a straightforward removal of lootscaling, expect hardcore people to farm several millions of gold per week. Think ectoplasm in the 25k range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Second off, the situation before the LS was best for everyone - Prices were getting low, money was easy to make - nobody had any reason to complain to be poor.

And farming for items of interest was harder than it is now, because of repeated area loot degradation. I also seem to remember all the troll farmers complaining their hearts out about the monsters scattering when they took serious damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Pre-LS was just fine. In fact, that's the 'era' where Guild Wars was at it's peak. After that economy got messed over and casual farming got killed.

Casual farming got killed way before lootscaling. Remember when trolls wouldn't line up to be cycloned anymore, but ran off to regenerate? I remember it well. Every other forum thread was complaining about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

-Loot Scaling doesn't affect Normal Mode. I agree that removing the Loot Scaling in HM would cause the economy to die out even more. Drops would become too common and everything would cost 100 Gold. NM is fine, though.

The only drops that would be too common are the drops that only cost 100 gold in the first place. All the rest would fall prey to inflation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

-Loot Scaling only comes in effect after a few farm runs, just like the anti-farm code used to do.

If we're going to cut corners like that, why not give everyone a daily alotment of gold upon their first logon of the day? Much more convenient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

-Remove Loot Scaling and improve the drops in an 8-man team. (Like, 800 gold drops in an 8-player team, and monsters drop more than 1 item).

Everything it boils down to is that you want more money, right?

Rocky Raccoon · Mar 26, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I think it all comes down to the fact that it is ANET's game and they make the rules to play by. You either play by their rules or you find another game you might enjoy more.

Fril Estelin · Mar 26, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli Rela

If you noticed you actually the only (or the most vocal) voice here to support LS.

No he's not. Read the 40+ pages of the discussion to convince yourself of that.

mr_groovy · Mar 26, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You have no idea. With no changes other than a straightforward removal of lootscaling, expect hardcore people to farm several millions of gold per week. Think ectoplasm in the 25k range.

Do you even play this game?

Ecto's were amongst the most rare items because:

1: Handfull of builds to farm it.
2: Favor determined. So almost no acces for some...
3: Uw used to be hard with a full team.

I'm talking gw + faction days.

Now:

1: Almost every char can farm UW without any problems.
2: Entrance of uw is now for all "title based", and last time I checked we still had 20.000 mins of favor.
3: Entrance of uw can also be done through scrolls.
4: Full uw run is now a peace of cake with all the bears running on consumables.

Ecto's will never soar to 25K, they won't even go up to 10K in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I think it all comes down to the fact that it is ANET's game and they make the rules to play by. You either play by their rules or you find another game you might enjoy more.

If they put in a rule A to prevent X. Then they put in a better rule B to prevent X, which makes rule A obsolete. Why do we need real A then?

MithranArkanere · Mar 26, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The problem with this is that you think that Farming is the way to get cash.

And it's not. It's a way to get some extra cash, more if you trade.

Anet is not against Farming, but will not actively support it, like running.

Asking to help farming is like asking to add interface additions for runners: a waste of time.

reetkever · Mar 26, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

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